Dannah Gresh: God’s Word is clear. We’re to come alongside those around us who are suffering. Here’s Dr. Juli Slattery.
Dr. Juli Slattery: We are called to bear each other’s burdens and to be aware of: who around me is suffering? How do I weep with those who weep? And how do I carry some of this load?
Dannah: This is the Revive Our Hearts podcast for May 21, 2024. I’m Dannah Gresh with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, co-author of Seeking Him.
Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: Is your life and your words a healing balm to your friends who are walking through trials, to women around you who may be suffering? The reality is that suffering is uncomfortable, and often we don’t know what to do with it.
Well, all this month we’ve been exploring the topic of serving others, serving like Jesus. And one important way for us to do that is by coming alongside someone who’s hurting.
Not long ago Dr. Juli Slattery and our own Erin Davis sat down to talk about how we can bless those around us who may be dealing with suffering and trauma and how God’s Word is such an important piece of that ministry.
Here’s Erin to start the conversation.
Erin Davis: Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, an author, a teacher, and co-founder of a ministry called Authentic Intimacy. But one of the things I love about you is what we have in common—you’re a boy mom.
Dr. Juli: Yes. I have three sons. You have four.
Erin: Right.
Dr. Juli: So you one upped me.
Erin: One up.
Dr. Juli: I love being a boy mom.
Erin: I do too.
Dr. Juli: I love having little guys and big guys.
Erin: One of my favorite perks is my hair brush is never missing. (laughter) All the parents of girls, they can never find their hairbrush.
Dr. Juli: I never thought of that. No one borrows my clothes.
Erin: That’s right. A little perk for being boy moms.
Dr. Juli: Yes.
Erin: Well, I’m going to just jump right in with maybe what is a difficult question . . . maybe not. But when you decided to pursue becoming a clinical psychologist, I want to know what you were seeing that made you decide, “Okay, that’s the career path for me.” What drew you to that?
Dr. Juli: Oh, my goodness. I have to go back so far, Erin, to probably when I was twenty years old, twenty-two years old.
Erin: That was yesterday.
Dr. Juli: Oh, yes. Right. (laughter) If I can remember anything from that time where I knew that’s what God was calling me to. I think what I just saw is that we need wisdom, that we all just need wisdom in knowing how to navigate life and to navigate challenges and relationships. My heart has always been: “How do we make God’s Word practical in that?”
And so, yes, I have training in clinical psychology, but I hope that first and foremost I’m a biblical psychologist, going back to the Word of God and applying it to everyday life situations and difficulties.
Erin: That’s a phrase I love and haven’t heard often—biblical psychology.
Dr. Juli: Yes. Some people think that’s an oxymoron.
Erin: Yes. I think that’s probably true.
Dr. Juli: I get that.
Erin: Well, I want to spend our time together talking about how to love hurting women well. The woman who’s listening might be the hurting woman, or it might be your adult daughter, or someone you go to church with.
But I would ask you this question, from your years of meeting with people and trying to help them through their hurts: “Are all women hurting women?”
Dr. Juli: Sometimes we are, yes. Life is hard.
Erin: It is.
Dr. Juli: We all have loss and grief and disappointment. We all know the experience of being betrayed at some level, of losing friends, of feeling insecure. So, the answer is yes, but also, not all women are equally hurting women.
Erin: Yes.
Dr. Juli: I don’t understand God’s ways, nor will I try to, but there are certainly some women who have a life that is filled with grief, that is filled with loss, that is filled with trauma. And so, I think we need to recognize that while we all can identify with some pain, there are some people that really are bearing a burden of grief and hurt and pain that the average woman can’t really even understand.
Erin: Yes. That makes me think . . . We sometimes have this tendency of comparing scars. Right?
Dr. Juli: Yes.
Erin: Like, “You’re hurting? Well, I’m hurting worse. I’ve got this childhood.” “Well, let me tell you about my childhood.” That’s not very honoring of each other. I’m not sure it accomplishes much.
Dr. Juli: It doesn’t. And I would say it even goes the other way where you don’t take seriously your own wounds because your wounds aren’t as bad as that person. And you feel like, “I can’t bring this to God. I can’t ask for prayer,” because it’s maybe a level five hurt, where the person sitting next to me has a level ten hurt.
And so comparing in any way, I think, keeps us from dealing with pain and grief appropriately.
Erin: It’s like that little spectrum they show you in the doctor’s office. Find these little faces. They’re either very, very happy, or very, very sad. (One of my sons always picks the very, very sad even though he’s just in there for a well child. “This doesn’t feel good,” I guess.)
Dr. Juli: Yes, that scale of hurt. I don’t think it helps us.
Erin: You mention a couple that when I say the phrase, “hurting women,” what types of hurt come into your mind that you’ve sat with women or walked through in your life?
Dr. Juli: I think one really obvious form of hurt is trauma and abuse. When we look at the statistics, we realize that like a third of women are walking around with significant sexual trauma.
Erin: And I wonder if that statistic is even right, because how many women never speak a word about it.
Dr. Juli: Right. Yes. It’s likely more than that. But then you add on to it other forms of trauma of not being parented well, being neglected, abandoned. And so, that is a very significant aspect of hurt, because it rocks the foundation of trust in a person’s life.
I think of trauma almost like an earthquake. All the other natural disasters, they’re horrible, but the ground is still secure. There’s still a foundation we can trust in. But with trauma, particularly with sexual trauma or the type of abuse you might experience from a caregiver or somebody that you trust, it’s an earthquake. The thing that’s not supposed to move is moving. And what is secure?
And so, when you’ve experienced that, particularly in childhood, you go through life often with a lens of fear. The more we learn about the brain and the body, trauma is stored in our brain. It is in our bodies. And so women that are battling scars, those kinds of scars from the past, often have a very hard road of, “Have I learned to trust God? How do I learn to have healthy relationships?” There are deep wounds there.
Erin: Yes. I’ve experienced that in my life, and I’ve walked with women through it. I love that earthquake picture.
Well, you’re a biblical psychologist, so let’s get to Scripture.
Dr. Juli: Yes.
Erin: When you open your Bible, what jumps out at you about how Jesus responded to hurting women?
Dr. Juli: Well, we talk in the Christian church a lot about different forms of revelation. We talk about special revelation, which is God’s Word. God reveals Himself through His Word, through the prophets, through miracles.
Then we talk about natural revelation, of how God reveals Himself through the world, through nature.
But I think a form of revelation that we often miss is what I might call relational revelation. The Scripture is important, it’s vital for us. Yes, wisdom that we glean from the earth is important to us, but the main way that Jesus ministered to hurting women was through His presence and through His relationship with them. He was there. He spoke words of comfort to them.
I think often when we’re trying to help hurting women, we want to go to the special revelation. We want to give them a Bible verse. We want to give them wisdom. And, again, there’s a time and a place for that. But I think we miss the most important form of revelation, which is: “How do I just minister to someone? How can I reveal the love of God through the compassion and the care and the presence that I bring just in being with somebody?”
Erin: When I think back on my life, moments when I was a hurting woman and someone ministered to me, what you’re describing is exactly what they did. They came and sat with me, said, “Let’s go take a walk, Erin.” They didn’t try to exegete the book of James about the glory of suffering. I mean, that’s helpful, but it was just presence. That’s almost more costly, isn’t it? I mean, time is our hottest commodity.
Dr. Juli: It is. I think, also, we don’t do it because we’re afraid that we don’t have the answers.
Erin: Right.
Dr. Juli: And so, for example, if you know a woman who lost her husband, or you know a woman who’s grieving a prodigal, you might write a card with an encouraging Bible verse. But to sit with her, what if she asks you, “Where’s God in my pain?” What if she breaks down and cries, and you don’t know the words of comfort to give? So we stay away because we’re afraid of not having the right thing to say or do. Where, in reality, the only thing that a woman may really need is just somebody to hold her and somebody to be there and someone to say nothing.
When we look at the book of Job, we see that Job’s friends were displaying great wisdom and comfort, until they opened their mouths.
Erin: Right.
Dr. Juli: Then it went downhill from there.
Erin: It didn’t go well. You’re right.
I’m thinking of a friend from our church, her name’s Jillianne, and we were walking through . . . Have you ever had one of those seasons where it’s just like train car after train car after train car that goes off the tracks? We were in one of those.
She just called and said, “Hey, I’m coming over.” Like, she didn’t give me the option. “And I’m going to clean your toilets while I’m there. And then I want to sit and have a cup of tea.” And she did! We’ve talked about the fact that I have four boys, so you know what the toilet situation is. (laughter) She came. She cleaned my bathrooms. And then she just sat with me. That was it. It was so comforting. A tremendous gift she gave me.
Dr. Juli: Yes. It is so true. And then mixing it with service, like anticipating . . . If she’d asked you, “Can I clean your bathrooms?”
Erin: I would have said, “No way! You can’t even go in!”
Dr. Juli: I’ve caught myself doing this: “What can I do? Can I bring you a meal? Can I . . .”
Erin: Hurting women don’t know.
Dr. Juli: They’ll say, “I don’t know,” or “No, I’m fine.”
I think there is a time of some assertiveness of anticipating what a need might be and just doing it.
Erin: Oh, amen. I’ve said this often on Revive Our Hearts, but my pastor, Pastor Tim, when I worked on staff at our church, he would look at us. Every week he would remind us that we are the first responders, that we drive the ambulance to the crash (not literally). But he told us don’t think that’s somebody else’s job, or don’t think somebody is maybe more equipped will do it, so we don’t do it. But we are to respond.
I think that’s the spirit of bearing one another’s burdens that we see in Scripture. Don’t you?
Dr. Juli: Yes. Absolutely yes. When we have those women in our lives, whether it is a temporal thing, where a woman you know is going through something really difficult, or it’s a woman who has just had trial after trial and hardship after hardship, we are called to bear each other’s burdens. We are to be aware of: “Who around me is suffering? How do I weep with those who weep? How do I carry some of this load?”
I feel like a lot of my life, as I’ve looked at other people and worked with other people, like, “I haven’t experienced the kind of suffering that others have. And I have to say, “Okay, Lord, to whom much is given, much is required. So, if You’ve given me strength, then that means that strength is for the person who needs it.” It’s not for me to enjoy.
Erin: It belongs to the Church.
Dr. Juli: It does, yes. And so, I need to look for: “Who needs somebody to be with them? Who needs that encouragement?” I need to always be aware of that.
Erin: Yes. I mean, we’re family. You’re my sister. I’m going to be with you in glory forever and ever and ever and ever. If my biological sisters are hurting, I’m going to want to move toward that need. I think the same with our spiritual sisters and brothers.
I’m not sure we do it well. So, let me preface this next question with saying, “I love the Church.” I’m not interested in bashing the Church. She is Jesus’ Bride. But I’m not sure that we’ve responded to hurting women within the Church well.
What is your experience or your perspective on the Church and how we respond to hurting women?
Dr. Juli: Well, this is a Church problem, but it’s really a human problem. First of all, we’re uncomfortable with suffering.
Erin: We think it’s contagious, don’t you think?
Dr. Juli: We do! Yes.
Erin: We don’t read the book of Job because we’re afraid the roof will fall in on our children.
Dr. Juli: (laughter) Yes.
We don’t know what to do with suffering. I think that this is particularly true in western culture. We want to believe that the Christian life should be void of suffering.
You look at other cultures, like the Jewish culture. When someone dies, there is a time set aside for fasting and for mourning and grieving. It’s a long time.
We don’t know how to lament. We want to say in every situation, “God is good.” And, yes, He’s good, but there’s also a time to say, “I don’t understand Your ways. This hurts.” And to sit with people who are in that space without trying to fix them or pull them up out of being sad. There’s a time to mourn, and there’s a time to be sad. So, I think that’s the first part.
But the second part is, you mentioned it, Erin. It’s really true that we think suffering’s contagious. I think this is true of all of us. We want to dissect how we can avoid the suffering we see.
So, somebody dies in a car accident. One of the first questions people might ask, “Were they wearing a seatbelt?” Why does it matter?
Erin: Right. Or, “Were they going too fast?”
Dr. Juli: Yes. “Were they drunk?”
Erin: “Was she walking alone?”
Dr. Juli: “What was she wearing?” “Was she at a party that she shouldn’t have been at?”
Somebody goes through a divorce. “Well, what did she do that her husband would leave her or have an affair?”
Erin: We experienced that during my childhood. My parents split, and half of the friendships just went away because they thought it could happen to them. That was uncomfortable.
Dr. Juli: Someone dies of cancer. “What was their diet like? Did they exercise?”
Instead of moving towards someone with just compassion, we want to dissect, and then that leads to judging. We never say it out loud, but the assumption is, “Well, they kind of deserve this.”
Erin: I think hurting people can feel it whether we say it out loud or not.
Dr. Juli: Yes. Which is why people move, often, away from the Church or Christian friends when they’re in a place of hurting, because the last thing they need is someone whispering about them or judging them. They already feel that burden.
The accuser is always accusing us. So the person who’s suffering is already thinking, “What did I do, God? Are You punishing me? Did I deserve this? What should I have done differently?”
When our thinking goes along with that, we actually become like Job’s counselors were, where we’re pouring salt in a wound instead of being a healing balm.
Erin: Right. That’s so true.
There’s an interesting cultural conversation happening that I’m so glad I get to talk to you about because I’m hearing these words all the time: trauma, triggering. There’s kind of this idea that everybody should have a counselor right now, like a professional counselor. And something in my insides . . . I can’t quite put my finger on it, but something in my insides is going, “Ah!”
There’s something we need to speak into that that’s truthful.
Dr. Juli: Yes.
Erin: So, can a biblical worldview and psychology coexist? I assume the answer is yes. How do we respond to this moment where it seems like people are almost wearing hurt as a badge of honor. I can’t even articulate it. So, find the question in my rambling. But what are your thoughts on what’s happening culturally?
Dr. Juli: Well, we have learned a lot about trauma and our response to trauma. I do believe that we all have forms of trauma in our past. And you even look at what happened in the Garden of Eden in Genesis, chapter 3. That was big “T” trauma. We might say. “That’s a rift of what you were created for. The intimacy we were created for with God is gone.”
Erin: Plus you’re kicked out of your home.
Dr. Juli: You’re banished from the Garden. So we live in a world where we will constantly experience little traumas and big traumas. That’s a reality.
It’s also good to understand how that trauma, when we don’t talk it through, when we don’t address it, it shows up. It shows up in our relationships. It shows up in our addictions. So I think all that is biblical. It’s hopeful. But I think where we’re missing it is, what’s the solution?
The solution for many, many people is not counseling. Now, here’s why I say that, because the things that a counselor is trained to do, the Body of Christ should be doing. Like, when we look at the Scripture, there was no such thing as First Peter Counseling Center. It didn’t exist!
But the things that counselors were doing are in our biblical tradition. So things like, telling our stories. Why in the Old Testament does the nation of Israel continue to tell the story of Israel—the good stuff and the bad stuff? Because we actually find in psychology that when we tell our stories, we’re dealing with trauma. When we say it out loud, when we sing it, our brain begins to heal.
You shouldn’t have to pay someone to listen to your story. A lot of people are going to counseling to confess to another person something they don’t feel like they could say out loud to their brothers and sisters in Christ.
That’s a travesty. To be listened to and to be comforted and consoled, to be given wisdom. How do I parent a wayward child? How do I love my husband well? These are things of God’s wisdom that God has given in His Body, teachers and counselors. He’s told the older women to teach the younger women.
I think it was Larry Crabb that said about 80% of the things that people go to counseling for should be done within the Body of Christ. If we were the kind of community that God designed us to be, a lot of the need for counseling would be satisfied.
Now, there are certainly times where it requires expertise and professional help, but I think what you’re referring to is everyone feels like they’re walking around with these open wounds and no one understands, and the only way they can solve them is to therapize them.
Erin: Yes. You hit it. That’s what I’ve been trying to pinpoint. And my spirit is, like, “Something doesn’t feel right about this.” And you’re right. The Lord has given us each other. We don’t have to professionalize it.
I was just driving and there was a commercial about internet-base counseling. The premise was, “Everyone needs a counselor. You can meet with your counselor on the phone or over Zoom.”
And I thought, “Man.”
There’s been times when I’ve gone to counseling, and there’s times when I don’t. But in the church, those are the counselors that have helped me grow and stretch the most.
Dr. Juli: I would say the other thing that is really important is understanding that psychology can provide tools, but it can’t heal. So when we use the tools of psychology, whether it be behavioral kind of therapies, or when we use the tools of working through traumatic memories, the goal has to be to get us to the feet of Jesus.
And so even a Christian counselor who is not using those tools to bring you to the feet of Jesus is not helping, because ultimately, He is the Healer.
I think that’s critical for us to remember we just minister to the people that are in our sphere as well as when we’re engaging with people that are in the professional counseling realm.
Nancy: Such great insight from Dr. Slattery. We’ve been listening as she and Erin Davis discuss how to help those around us who are suffering.
We want to equip you through programs like this one, as well as many other resources, to practically live out God’s Word in your daily life and in your relationships with people.
Here’s what one woman wrote to us recently. She said,
I’ve been listening to Revive Our Hearts since I was a young wife and mother. I can honestly say that every time I’m struggling with an issue or praying about something, the topics you cover are always right on time.
I’m so thankful that God hears our prayers and knows our hearts. And I’m thankful for the way Revive Our Hearts encourages and equips me in my walk with the Lord.
Well, notes like that are such an encouragement to my heart, and I could not be more grateful for the ways that God works through this ministry in the lives of women like the one you just heard from.
Well, our burden here at Revive Our Hearts is to serve you and women all over the world, calling them to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ. But I’ve got to tell you, we couldn’t possibly do that without the support of an army of friends who partner with us in praying and giving to help meet the needs of this ministry.
When you join in our mission, we get the joy of serving Jesus together. If Revive Our Hearts has been a blessing, an encouragement to you, and perhaps to others that you know and love, I want to ask if you would prayerfully consider giving a special gift to help us finish this ministry year strong.
We’re asking the Lord for $838,000 this month to help us continue funding our various outreaches to women around the world. That’s a huge goal for us. But we’re trusting Him to provide what He knows we need through friends like you.
So, as a way to express our gratitude for your gift, we’d love to send you our 30-day devotional called, Living Out the One Anothers of Scripture. This is a great resource to help you know how to practically interact with the people that God has placed in your life. I think it will be a great encouragement to you.
And, speaking of encouragement, if you’ve already sent a gift toward this need this month, let me just say, “Thank you, again, for your support at this crucial time.”
And thanks for praying that the Lord will continue to prompt many more hearts to give, and that the Lord will be pleased to meet the complete need this month.
Dannah: To give, visit ReviveOurHearts.com, or call us at 1-800-569-5959, and ask for your copy of Living Out the One Anothers of Scripture.
Our friends, Dr. Juli Slattery and Erin Davis, will be back to finish the conversation they began today.
Dr. Juli: If we really look at deconstruction, what we’re looking at, and I’m going to use the psychological term, cognitive dissonance. And cognitive dissonance is when I’ve experienced something that challenges my core understanding of how God works or the world works.
We all have that experience. We all naively put our trust in, “Okay, God is good. So that’s what that’s supposed to look like in my life. So I’m going to follow God and obey His commands.”
And now my husband has an affair, “Well, God, if You’re good, and I was doing everything You asked me to do, how could this happen?” And that’s cognitive dissonance right there. Now I have to try to make sense of a God who would allow something horrible to happen.
Erin: Yes.
Dannah: That’s tomorrow on Revive Our Hearts.
This program is a listener-supported production of Revive Our Hearts in Niles, Michigan, calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ.
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